All this is just noise to the MAGA Cult. They will just accuse the Cheney's of being traitors.
Maybe (although I'm not a conservative) they will be called a Fascist Antifa, like I was, by one of those enlightened lot. Fascist Antifa.......yep. Makes perfect sense....All that just confirms that the MAGA brain does not really comprehend words, never mind concepts, beyond pat phrases they have learned to respond to in Pavlovian fashion. It also explains why they think Trump's attempt at saying words sound like pure genius: they are the illiterati listening to an illiterate. So, logic and brutal honesty from a Cheney means nothing because I honestly think they don't understand any words beyond "Trump is God". I also see a problem as to how they will behave, and how to respond, after Harris wins.
Heavy-hitting and spot on, Rick; thanks as always. Two comments:
1) My father, who was a Presbyterian minister, used to tell this story as part of one of his most popular sermons.
A pastor delivers a fiery oratory on the importance of adherence to faith and principle. Afterwards, as he’s greeting his parishioners at the exit, one woman says to him, “Father, I’m proud to say I’ve always lived my life in a most ethical and uprighteous manner.” The pastor hesitates, then says to her, “And if I asked if you’d sleep with me for ten million dollars, would you?” She demurs, then says, “Hmm…I’d be set for life; no worries, the ability to travel and live well. Sure, for ten million dollars, then yes.” The pastor replies, “How about ten bucks?” The woman exclaims, “What kind of a lady do you think I am?!” Pastor: “We’ve already determined that; now we’re just haggling on the price.”
2) Think about this: Each one of these Tenet Media “influencers” is throwing all 350 million Americans—you, me, your spouse/SO, your kids, your grandkids, relative, co-workers, friends, neighbors, all their kids and family, etc., etc.—under the bus, perhaps to our mutual doom. For what? $400k/month? As much as these sanctimonious “useful geniuses” love to spout their religiosity, they clearly have never actually read the Bible:
“For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? Or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?” —Mark 8:36-37.
the hypocrisy of the so-called "religious right" and "moral majority" is disgraceful; their leaders and spokesmen all just grifters and opportunities, selling their souls for $$, and wrapping themselves in the flag.
Sinclair Lewis wrote (in 1935) “When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying the cross.”
I’ll have more later. But to me Dick Cheney is one
of but, maybe 4 traditional Rs opening their mouths. As a Democrat, I will cling to any breathing R that stands up…
My hope is that those traditional Rs, mature yet not in ground, will look at this endorsement, and say
It is ok to vote D. It is ok to vote opposition, it is ok to vote Kamala Harris. It is ok….it will be ok… maybe Dick is right, I will do it, I will vote for Kamala.
Trashing McCain did Trump no favors in Arizona. If there are any surviving McCain voters in crucial states, certainly could not hurt.
I would run out in front of a train today, before I throw the baby out with the bath water. Grew up with more idioms than I can shake a stick at.
And staunch Democrats. Dyed in the wool, as Dad will say. Believe you me, they had PLENTY to say about Reagan, Poppy, Junior & Dick. Somehow it all becomes relative, for me anyway.
Bob, I say this with love, you are not the only one who holds LBJ in such high regard. You have not met my parents.
Whole thing smells beyond, let alone heartbreaking. Ever miss getting that trash can out for pick up? It’s Summer, it’s hot. You ate seafood much of the week, topped off with those sort of sealed bags of dog shit.
Oops there goes the truck… you are stuck with that can for the next week.
My dad was in the service during Korea and was an Eisenhower Republican who voted for Nixon. He became a Kennedy man because of JFK's wit and repartee during press conferences. But he _loathed_ LBJ so much that he voted for Goldwater. My nostalgia for LBJ is purely retrospective, based on his highly progressive domestic agenda, but every antiwar person at the time, and their numbers kept growing, despised LBJ more than my old man did. The Vietnam war was a millstone around his neck and will forever tarnish his historical legacy.
That's precisely my fear with Dick Cheney; I think his endorsement is a Kiss of Death. I see it as a gift to Trump and the Tulsi Gabbard wing of MAGA. I don't want to give Trump more ammo to talk about Forever Wars; I see it as potentially depressing turnout. That's my concern.
And I fully recognize that I could be wrong and blowing this out of proportion.
Bob, I don't think there's a single Democratic voter who is going to "not vote" or vote for Trump because of Dick Cheney's endorsement. No one is going to give Trump an inch because of Dick. But some old-time Repubs just may say "if Dick Cheney can vote for Kamala then so can I". And that can make a difference in those Republican never-Trumpers.
I don't see any downside (what Trump hating Dem is going to Not Vote because of dick Cheney?); I see and upside (Republican never-Trumpers); or it doesn't move the needle.
But think of all the high-profile Repubs who DIDN'T show up at Trump's RNC, and all the high-profile Repubs who are openly endorsing Kamala - what that shows is that the wind is in Kamala's sails, and Trump is floundering. Dick Cheney won't stop the Blue Wave, and he might add a few votes. I think you're too focused on the past; this election is about Breaking the Trump Trance, and all these Republican endorsement are helping that to happen.
And it also shows the great civil-war within the Republican Party - this is all good news. The Blue Wave is on, and it's picking up Republican waters. Let it roll.
Abe, you're not doing a terribly good job of putting yourself in the shoes of marginal voters. Trump-hating Democrats are hardly the key demographic here. I also think you grossly overestimate the esteem that Dick Cheney is held in by Republicans. Bush / Cheney left office with approval ratings in the 20s.
It takes a while, most often over a generation, for wars to leave the front of the public consciousness. Poppy was so eager for Operation Desert Storm to push Iraq out of Kuwait to exorcise the "Vietnam syndrome" and that war ended 20 years previously. Iraq and Afghanistan are still very much in the public consciousness; a big part of Trump's appeal from the beginning is opposition to "Forever Wars." Dick Cheney brings that back into your face. There's a certain kind of voter, reflexively antiwar, has a problem with Biden / Harris on Gaza, who a Dick Cheney endorsement might serve as a tipping point excuse to sit out the election. I worry there might be more of them than any Republicans motivated to vote for Harris by a Cheney endorsement.
If Republicans were endorsing Harris en masse, it would be different. But where's Mitt Romney, Chris Christie, Nikki Haley, Chris Sununu, Larry Hogan? The Cheneys and Kinzinger are loyal to conservative principles. The others who've talked trash about Trump but who won't endorse Harris are loyal to the Republican Party.
Where are ALL the old “normie” Republicans who should speak out against the Trump-Vance ticket? It’s less than two months before the election. What are they waiting for? History will not be kind to them if they continue to be silent. Speak up conservatives!
The Cheney's endorsement have added to the growing Republicans-agaisnt-Trump movement, and I suspect there'll be more, especially after Trump self-destructs at Tuesday's debate. Then the Blue Wave becomes a Blue Tsunami.
Said so well Rick! Keep up the great and wonderful work you do because you do make a huge difference! I so appreciate Liz Cheney, Adam Kizinger, Geoff Duncan, Dick Cheney.
Excellent. This week I turned three fence sitters on a simple statement when the mentioned the global situation: every sects of state, every head of DoD, every director of the NSA, every VP and all but one president (and we know what GW thinks of the Orange Turd), including those in Trump’s own admin, have stated they will not vote for him. Adding Dick Cheney to this list HUGE. So we have the economy. We have illegal immigration. We have violent crime. But THIS is the argument that really hits home.
You know who else Olbermann says are on the list? Glenn Greenwald and Matt Taibbi. Heh.
Rick, my nuclear grade critique of the Cheneys comes from the left. It sets my teeth on edge (a stronger expression might also be good) to see either of them held up as avatars of our alliances. Dubya -- with Dick Cheney's strong urging -- pissed on the UNSC and invaded Iraq unilaterally.
I'm wondering if you fully appreciate how much the Iraq and Afghanistan wars broke the Republican Party. Calling the Cheneys lifetime principled conservatives does not paper this over. In the cold war, whatever the nature of a particular proxy conflict, there was an ideology backed by a state that we were opposing. We weren't opposing either Iraq or Afghanistan -- we were opposing Islamist terrorism by non-state actors. The wreckage we caused in Iraq stood up ISIS and gave Russia an excuse to blow the shit out of Syria. This is not a legacy that any American can be proud of, Rick.
So you'll have to forgive my Cheney Derangement Syndrome, my principled conservative friend.
agreed; Job Number One is to Defeat Donald Trump. Period. Nothing else matters if Trump wins; so anything and everything that helps Defeat Donald Trump is a valuable asset in this war to save democracy.
I don't care what Liz or Dick Cheney did in the past; today they are standing up to Trump and (for whatever their own reasons - patriotism, plot to take over the Republican Party, whatever) for whatever their reasons, they are joining the mortal battle to Defeat Donald Trump.
Their impact, to me, is to "give permission" to Republicans to vote ("this one time") for Democrats to Defeat Donald Trump.
For that I am grateful to the Cheneys. They recognize that the ONLY JOB now is to Defeat Donald Trump.
Whatever Dick Cheney's flaws and crimes in the past, if he helps to Defeat Donald Trump then, to my mind, he has found some redemption.
There is a binary mortal battle here: Trump wins or Trump loses. And if the Cheneys help Defeat Trump, then thank you to the Cheneys.
The Democratic coalition is a big tent and the Cheneys can endorse whoever they want. I just don't think it's anywhere near the coup that Rick and The Bulwark think it is. Reminding people who remember those catastrophic wars carries a downside as well, and Dick Cheney is the poster boy for a unilateral invasion based on egregious lies.
Without the Iraq and Afghanistan wars -- and again, Cheney was their principal mastermind -- do you really think Republicans would be giving support for Ukraine such a hard time? Of course not. Dick Cheney is directly responsible for that.
I tend to think that the Republicans who are working against Ukraine are Russian assets, and late breaking news tells us that many people are being paid by the Russian government to foment this division in our country. Josh Hawley, JD Vance, and others like them are not, in my opinion, a product of something Dick Cheney did. They are bought and paid for by Russia, or they have been seriously brainwashed, or they have been compromised in some way by the Russian government. Trump, as far as I can tell, is being blackmailed by the Russian government and probably has been for years.
That's a little too conspiracist for my blood, Janet. In order for propaganda to work, the ground has to be seeded for it. It's like in StoogeGate, their handlers wanted to run Tucker's obsequious tour through a Russian grocery store and one of them said waitaminute, that looks like grotesquely transparent shilling ;). I mean, Tara Reade can't write gushing blog posts about Putin's shirtless sex appeal and have it be taken seriously as propaganda ;)
Being against "forever wars" is a talking point on the left and the right. I was adamantly against the Iraq and Afghanistan wars and just as adamantly support Ukraine and it takes no mental gymnastics for me to hold those positions together. But many people don't think about it that deeply and just see the vast amount of blood and treasure wasted on Iraq and Afghanistan and wonder why we have to give aid to Ukraine. You can sincerely hold that position without being influenced by Russian propaganda. And what gives that position credence is precisely the tragically wasted effort that Dick Cheney led us into.
So yeah, with bone crushing irony, Dick Cheney has unwittingly become an instrument of Russian propaganda.
With our democracy teetering on a knife edge, we should take a moment to appreciate the brave, self-sacrificing, utterly patriotic Americans who are stepping up in this moment of peril: President Joe Biden, Adam Kinzinger, Geoff Duncan, Liz and Dick Cheney. And hopefully more to come. When so many are too worried about their political futures to poke their heads up, these people are standing proud in the cause of protecting our democracy despite the personal cost. I'm grateful to all of them.
As far as Vlad's bagmen go, they didn't know where the money came from just like Carmela Soprano didn't know what Tony did for a living. Totally believable.
So well said, Jane. I’m hearing a lot of criticism about the Cheney family, but I think it’s misplaced. At a time like this, complaining about how people voted or what positions they held in the past fades in importance when we are facing a fascist threat. If Liz Cheney and her father want to lock arms with the Democrats to defeat this monster, I welcome her into the fold.
Agreed….but this is now, and if the Cheneys help flip some votes in swing districts, I say let them. Encourage them. Doesn’t mean absolving Dick of his role in the Iraq war.
I was referring to Liz Cheney being a very conservative voter and once parroting Trump’s idiotic bullshit about post-birth abortion. She’s guilty of several stupidities, but she has changed her stance on some issues over the years, including the right to marry who you love.
Her sister Mary is famously a lesbian, so I'm sure that was helpful to her change of mind on same sex marriage. But it's not her positions that concern me; Adam Kinzinger is just about as staunchly conservative and yet he's completely sound and would be a fine Republican pick for Kamala's cabinet.
Liz Cheney, as recently as her primary debate with Harriet Hageman, called covid a Chinese bioweapon. That's not a staunchly conservative position, that's an _insane_ position and it disqualifies her from a cabinet post.
I also agree that among all the Republicans who have risked their careers by defying Trump, Kinzinger would be the best for a cabinet position, or some other position in Harris’s administration.
Adam is way way _way_ conservative but he's also a perfectly reasonable guy and I haven't heard him utter an opinion that I'd consider beyond the pale of normal political discourse.
I knew her sister was a lesbian, and I watched an interview with Cheney on PBS concerning how she came around to accepting that. I also know that she has spouted some really insane shit, like the post-birth abortion nonsense, so it does not surprise me that she has bought into the China bioweapon story. There are a number of otherwise intelligent people who have been swayed by that conspiracy theory as well.
It's not about intelligence; a lot of conspiracy theorists have high IQs. It's judgment. You can suspend the rules of evidence for a thought experiment but conflating it with reality is another ball o' whacks.
There are some ideas that should be beyond the pale in politics. Kamala wouldn't appoint a Republican election denier to her cabinet for obvious reasons. She wouldn't appoint a climate denialist to head the EPA or a Flat Earther to run NASA. Also bear in mind that the lab leak theory, which I think is still an open question, is not the same thing as concluding that covid was being developed as a bioweapon.
In perfect fairness to Liz, she said this in her primary debate with Harriet Hageman, so the pressure was on to out-wingnut her opponent.
Atonement and redemption. At the crucial hour he stepped up and did the right thing. Whatever he did in the past, I am grateful for his actions now. Because there is one and only one issue on the table now: defeating Donald Trump. And the Cheneys are stepping up and doing the right thing. Thank you Dick and Liz Cheney.
I'm going to think about it as a math thing - Dick Cheney, because of the Shock and Awe War - was at a minus 10 with me. His daughter's announcement that he's voting for Harris gets him plus 5. So that leaves me at minus 5 for the Dick. Destabilizing, useless, lie-based wars (thousands upon thousands of human casualties, untold suffering), outweigh 1 vote, but bring him closer to even. In my book.
You and I aren't the people who will be persuaded or swayed by an endorsement from Dick Cheney. We're not the target audience. As far as the Iraq war goes, you and I - and my conservative republican late dad - are on the same page. But this isn't about that or then. It's about the future of our country and preventing an authoritarian take over of our government.
George W is just as much to blame for those wars. He made a pact with the devil when he selected Dick Cheney as his vice president. I do think that Dick Cheney is a monster in his own right for his past actions, but he is not totally to blame for that decades long debacle. There were other actors, and let’s remember that Hillary Clinton’s vote was to invade Iraq. I’d like to give the American people enough credit to be able to distinguish between a positive act on the part of Dick Cheney and his daughter, and Dick’s past history and the policies his daughter stands for. I’m not sure how you jump to the conclusion that somehow Liz Cheney is going to have a cabinet position. (Did you mention that in another post or am I imagining that?) If Liz somehow becomes the person who initiates the rebuilding of a normal and sane Republican Party, then that can only be a good thing.
This is our first deep dish disagreement, Janet, and I thank you for your civility and respect, although I'd expect nothing less from you ;)
Neither Hillary Clinton nor Joe Biden nor John Kerry voted to invade Iraq. They voted for the AUMF as a leveraging tool, predicated on Hans Blix finishing the weapons inspections which Dubya prevented him from doing. They were all betrayed by the president's lie.
Dick Cheney is the intellectual architect of the Iraq invasion and the justification for it. Before the Office of Special Plans in the VP's office, he was part of the Program For a New American Century, which laid out the case for an Iraq invasion in the late 90s as "a new Pearl Harbor to awaken America's moral purpose." George W. Bush was never as dumb as his public caricature, but he was no intellectual, either. He was an easily led gaga enthusiast. And this led to the collapse of the GOP foreign policy consensus and ultimately Trump's isolationism. The person who did the most to enable Trump's rise is Dick Cheney.
Kamala Harris wants to appoint a Republican to her cabinet, which I'm absolutely fine with. I'm just saying that Liz's belief that covid is a Chinese bioweapon is a conspiracy theory that disqualifies her.
The GOP is not going to be rebuilt by marquee ultraconservatives like the Cheneys. If it's going to be rebuilt, it will be rebuilt by moderates.
None of that is news, Bob. But his endorsement isn't about the past, it's about preserving the future of our democratic republic. History will judge him and George W over their conduct of the Afghan and Iraq wars, and rightfully so. That's not the moment we're in now. Right now, we're facing the rise of a fascist authoritarian movement led by Donald Trump that will destroy our country as we know it. If Dick Cheney and his daughter are brave enough to face down the wrath of MAGA and stand with us in preventing that, I'm willing to lock arms with them and thank them for their help.
exactly. This is a life and death moment for American democracy, and the Cheneys (whatever their past deeds) are stepping up and doing the right thing. Helping to defeat Donald Trump.
I'm concerned about the political consequences. I don't think this is nearly the coup that the Beltway insiders think it is. Liz Cheney is a hero but I think her father remains toxic. Dick Cheney is in large part responsible for Donald Trump by wrecking the GOP foreign policy consensus and saddling us with two catastrophic wars that not a single soul can argue did any good for America or the world.
You wanna know why vast chunks of the GOP can't support Ukraine?
Absolutely none! Adam Kinzinger might be an exception, but even he is too conservative for me and most Democrats. I’m not sure that these Republicans who are endorsing Kamala Harris are looking for cabinet positions in a Democratic administration. I think they are trying to be leaders in the establishment of a new and better Republican Party.
History is not going to remember it that way. The Iraq and Afghanistan wars were worse than anything that happened in Trump's administration, including his botched covid response. Their catastrophic failures are directly responsible for the GOP becoming isolationist. In fact, no single person did more to create the conditions for the rise of Donald Trump than Dick Cheney, who essentially radio controlled Dubya on the wars, who was well out of his depth.
I understand and agree with that, but I do not think that it is going to dissuade people from voting for Kamala Harris because they’re disgusted by Dick Cheney‘s past actions and decisions. All I care about right now is getting past this election with the country intact.
We all hope it wouldn't, Janet, but I'm concerned about voters on the bubble. Like lefties who are already browned off at Biden/Harris over Gaza and they see that Kamala was just endorsed by the arch-warmonger himself. I worry that there are actually more of them than there are of suburban Republicans who'd be impressed by a Cheney endorsement enough to vote for Harris.
Of course this is just my speculation and I very much hope I'm wrong.
The point of this election is not simply to move the left to vote Democratic, it is to create a permission structure for life-long Republicans to vote for Democrats. I understand some purist Democrats might stay home, but if they can't see the bigger picture they may already stay home because Kamala is too centrist Democrat for them. Lifelong Democrat voters can't stop Republican endorsements, even if they wanted to do so-----but even more importantly centrist Republicans are reliable voters we now want to vote for Kamala. I fervently hope that liberal Democrats will encourage voters to vote for Kamala, but that might not happen independent of the Cheneys's endorsement. I think these Republican endorsements can increase votes for Kamala from the center right, and any leftist Democrat who can't see that not voting f9r Harris is actually electing Trump, probably aren't planning to vote for her anyway.
agreed; the one and only critical factor at this moment in American history is to Defeat Trump, and if all the evil Cheneys and Bad Guys from the past step up TODAY and do the right thing, then I'll take it. I wouldn't decline life-saving surgery because the Doctor is a MAGA Republican. If Cheney can help to save America from Trump, then thank you Dick Cheney.
Liz Cheney has a special, honored place for sitting on the J6 Committee and torching her political career in order to defend democracy. Her father, not so much; he's indelibly associated with the two biggest foreign policy catastrophes in American history. I think in general, the Cheney stock is overpriced for the sort of voters you're talking about, center-right suburban Republicans. The Cheney name has real cache for deep dish conservatives like Rick and The Bulwark.
I don't think Liz's endorsement would have a negative effect on Democratic turnout at all. I think Dick's endorsement has the potential to be a net negative even for Republicans, because there isn't a soul in America who looks back fondly on those two wars.
Those two wars demolished the postwar GOP foreign policy consensus and allowed Trump's strain of isolationism to take hold.
Look, the Cheneys are wrong about plenty of things. But right now, the Trump stain on the GOP is so thorough, everyone will have to think about the giant yawning vacuum that opens up after Trump. No one is going to make Liz Cheney president, and Dick is obviously politically done. Someone is going to have to at least start a process to reform the GOP, or make another party, or whatever. Right now, history is history and let's not look at gift horse in the mouth. The Cheneys might not bring many votes to our side, but even a small number might be decisive.
"Wrong" is gilding the lily here. From a purely political perspective, I worry that plenty of people across the ideological spectrum remain thoroughly disgusted by those wars and just reminding them of Dick Cheney might suppress turnout.
I mean, Dick Cheney is not anybody's idea of a poster boy for rebuilding our alliances.
It's pretty clear he's supporting Harris because Trump is dangerous, not because he thinks Harris will be a military adventurist. I can't believe anybody would be confused about that at all. I don't think a single Democrat will be put off by this, and it may attract some GOP voters/leaners. My hope is this is the beginning of other big names.
Your hope is my hope; this may nudge some well-known Republicans who have been biting their nails about this off the fence. If other important non-MAGA conservatives do the same thing, it could move a lot of undecided and independent voters. I also don’t think this is going to keep young people from voting for Kamala Harris. I think younger Americans are smart enough to understand that this is about saving America from fascism. It’s not about the Cheney’s thinking that they can influence Kamala’s policies.
It shouldn't be about that, Janet, but war produces psychic trauma and long lasting bad feelings. Dick Cheney can endorse who he wants for whatever reason he chooses, but I don't think Kamala ought to be putting that endorsement in any campaign ads.
Thank you for posting Liz Cheney’s second statement affirming her support for Kamala Harris and indicating that her father, Dick Cheney would vote for Kamala Harris also. Liz Cheney made the same point some people around me are making. No one who talks about women the way these men do should hold office. The other point the men around here make is that supporting MAGA Republicans make men unpopular with women. I hadn’t thought of that until a guy pointed it out.
SC, that's a well-thought historical analysis and perspective.
But I think this election is about NOW; and right now the majority of Americans want to see the end of the malignant Trump era. That's the ballot question of this election: more Trumpism? Or goodbye Trumpism. Period. Nothing else matters.
yep Christ, know them all
All this is just noise to the MAGA Cult. They will just accuse the Cheney's of being traitors.
Maybe (although I'm not a conservative) they will be called a Fascist Antifa, like I was, by one of those enlightened lot. Fascist Antifa.......yep. Makes perfect sense....All that just confirms that the MAGA brain does not really comprehend words, never mind concepts, beyond pat phrases they have learned to respond to in Pavlovian fashion. It also explains why they think Trump's attempt at saying words sound like pure genius: they are the illiterati listening to an illiterate. So, logic and brutal honesty from a Cheney means nothing because I honestly think they don't understand any words beyond "Trump is God". I also see a problem as to how they will behave, and how to respond, after Harris wins.
Heavy-hitting and spot on, Rick; thanks as always. Two comments:
1) My father, who was a Presbyterian minister, used to tell this story as part of one of his most popular sermons.
A pastor delivers a fiery oratory on the importance of adherence to faith and principle. Afterwards, as he’s greeting his parishioners at the exit, one woman says to him, “Father, I’m proud to say I’ve always lived my life in a most ethical and uprighteous manner.” The pastor hesitates, then says to her, “And if I asked if you’d sleep with me for ten million dollars, would you?” She demurs, then says, “Hmm…I’d be set for life; no worries, the ability to travel and live well. Sure, for ten million dollars, then yes.” The pastor replies, “How about ten bucks?” The woman exclaims, “What kind of a lady do you think I am?!” Pastor: “We’ve already determined that; now we’re just haggling on the price.”
2) Think about this: Each one of these Tenet Media “influencers” is throwing all 350 million Americans—you, me, your spouse/SO, your kids, your grandkids, relative, co-workers, friends, neighbors, all their kids and family, etc., etc.—under the bus, perhaps to our mutual doom. For what? $400k/month? As much as these sanctimonious “useful geniuses” love to spout their religiosity, they clearly have never actually read the Bible:
“For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? Or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?” —Mark 8:36-37.
the hypocrisy of the so-called "religious right" and "moral majority" is disgraceful; their leaders and spokesmen all just grifters and opportunities, selling their souls for $$, and wrapping themselves in the flag.
Sinclair Lewis wrote (in 1935) “When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying the cross.”
https://kamala4prez.substack.com/p/it-cant-happen-here
I’ll have more later. But to me Dick Cheney is one
of but, maybe 4 traditional Rs opening their mouths. As a Democrat, I will cling to any breathing R that stands up…
My hope is that those traditional Rs, mature yet not in ground, will look at this endorsement, and say
It is ok to vote D. It is ok to vote opposition, it is ok to vote Kamala Harris. It is ok….it will be ok… maybe Dick is right, I will do it, I will vote for Kamala.
Trashing McCain did Trump no favors in Arizona. If there are any surviving McCain voters in crucial states, certainly could not hurt.
John McCain was the maverick darling of media and moderates. John McCain carried Barack Obama's water by famously saving the Affordable Care Act.
Dick Cheney not so much.
I would run out in front of a train today, before I throw the baby out with the bath water. Grew up with more idioms than I can shake a stick at.
And staunch Democrats. Dyed in the wool, as Dad will say. Believe you me, they had PLENTY to say about Reagan, Poppy, Junior & Dick. Somehow it all becomes relative, for me anyway.
Bob, I say this with love, you are not the only one who holds LBJ in such high regard. You have not met my parents.
Whole thing smells beyond, let alone heartbreaking. Ever miss getting that trash can out for pick up? It’s Summer, it’s hot. You ate seafood much of the week, topped off with those sort of sealed bags of dog shit.
Oops there goes the truck… you are stuck with that can for the next week.
We must get rid of this trash!
My dad was in the service during Korea and was an Eisenhower Republican who voted for Nixon. He became a Kennedy man because of JFK's wit and repartee during press conferences. But he _loathed_ LBJ so much that he voted for Goldwater. My nostalgia for LBJ is purely retrospective, based on his highly progressive domestic agenda, but every antiwar person at the time, and their numbers kept growing, despised LBJ more than my old man did. The Vietnam war was a millstone around his neck and will forever tarnish his historical legacy.
That's precisely my fear with Dick Cheney; I think his endorsement is a Kiss of Death. I see it as a gift to Trump and the Tulsi Gabbard wing of MAGA. I don't want to give Trump more ammo to talk about Forever Wars; I see it as potentially depressing turnout. That's my concern.
And I fully recognize that I could be wrong and blowing this out of proportion.
Bob, I don't think there's a single Democratic voter who is going to "not vote" or vote for Trump because of Dick Cheney's endorsement. No one is going to give Trump an inch because of Dick. But some old-time Repubs just may say "if Dick Cheney can vote for Kamala then so can I". And that can make a difference in those Republican never-Trumpers.
I don't see any downside (what Trump hating Dem is going to Not Vote because of dick Cheney?); I see and upside (Republican never-Trumpers); or it doesn't move the needle.
But think of all the high-profile Repubs who DIDN'T show up at Trump's RNC, and all the high-profile Repubs who are openly endorsing Kamala - what that shows is that the wind is in Kamala's sails, and Trump is floundering. Dick Cheney won't stop the Blue Wave, and he might add a few votes. I think you're too focused on the past; this election is about Breaking the Trump Trance, and all these Republican endorsement are helping that to happen.
And it also shows the great civil-war within the Republican Party - this is all good news. The Blue Wave is on, and it's picking up Republican waters. Let it roll.
Abe, you're not doing a terribly good job of putting yourself in the shoes of marginal voters. Trump-hating Democrats are hardly the key demographic here. I also think you grossly overestimate the esteem that Dick Cheney is held in by Republicans. Bush / Cheney left office with approval ratings in the 20s.
It takes a while, most often over a generation, for wars to leave the front of the public consciousness. Poppy was so eager for Operation Desert Storm to push Iraq out of Kuwait to exorcise the "Vietnam syndrome" and that war ended 20 years previously. Iraq and Afghanistan are still very much in the public consciousness; a big part of Trump's appeal from the beginning is opposition to "Forever Wars." Dick Cheney brings that back into your face. There's a certain kind of voter, reflexively antiwar, has a problem with Biden / Harris on Gaza, who a Dick Cheney endorsement might serve as a tipping point excuse to sit out the election. I worry there might be more of them than any Republicans motivated to vote for Harris by a Cheney endorsement.
If Republicans were endorsing Harris en masse, it would be different. But where's Mitt Romney, Chris Christie, Nikki Haley, Chris Sununu, Larry Hogan? The Cheneys and Kinzinger are loyal to conservative principles. The others who've talked trash about Trump but who won't endorse Harris are loyal to the Republican Party.
I think I now get where you are coming from.
Where are ALL the old “normie” Republicans who should speak out against the Trump-Vance ticket? It’s less than two months before the election. What are they waiting for? History will not be kind to them if they continue to be silent. Speak up conservatives!
The Cheney's endorsement have added to the growing Republicans-agaisnt-Trump movement, and I suspect there'll be more, especially after Trump self-destructs at Tuesday's debate. Then the Blue Wave becomes a Blue Tsunami.
The siren interruption made me laugh. Comedic relief during these dark topics. Continued thanks for all you do, Rick!👍
Said so well Rick! Keep up the great and wonderful work you do because you do make a huge difference! I so appreciate Liz Cheney, Adam Kizinger, Geoff Duncan, Dick Cheney.
Hopefully more on the way. Thank you 😊
Excellent. This week I turned three fence sitters on a simple statement when the mentioned the global situation: every sects of state, every head of DoD, every director of the NSA, every VP and all but one president (and we know what GW thinks of the Orange Turd), including those in Trump’s own admin, have stated they will not vote for him. Adding Dick Cheney to this list HUGE. So we have the economy. We have illegal immigration. We have violent crime. But THIS is the argument that really hits home.
I worry that Dick Cheney is a bridge too far.
Great podcast Rick. unexpected doesn't begin to cover it.
You know who else Olbermann says are on the list? Glenn Greenwald and Matt Taibbi. Heh.
Rick, my nuclear grade critique of the Cheneys comes from the left. It sets my teeth on edge (a stronger expression might also be good) to see either of them held up as avatars of our alliances. Dubya -- with Dick Cheney's strong urging -- pissed on the UNSC and invaded Iraq unilaterally.
I'm wondering if you fully appreciate how much the Iraq and Afghanistan wars broke the Republican Party. Calling the Cheneys lifetime principled conservatives does not paper this over. In the cold war, whatever the nature of a particular proxy conflict, there was an ideology backed by a state that we were opposing. We weren't opposing either Iraq or Afghanistan -- we were opposing Islamist terrorism by non-state actors. The wreckage we caused in Iraq stood up ISIS and gave Russia an excuse to blow the shit out of Syria. This is not a legacy that any American can be proud of, Rick.
So you'll have to forgive my Cheney Derangement Syndrome, my principled conservative friend.
For now, the enemy of our enemy is our friend.
Extreme circumstances call for extreme alliances, and the moment for that is now.
agreed; Job Number One is to Defeat Donald Trump. Period. Nothing else matters if Trump wins; so anything and everything that helps Defeat Donald Trump is a valuable asset in this war to save democracy.
I don't care what Liz or Dick Cheney did in the past; today they are standing up to Trump and (for whatever their own reasons - patriotism, plot to take over the Republican Party, whatever) for whatever their reasons, they are joining the mortal battle to Defeat Donald Trump.
Their impact, to me, is to "give permission" to Republicans to vote ("this one time") for Democrats to Defeat Donald Trump.
For that I am grateful to the Cheneys. They recognize that the ONLY JOB now is to Defeat Donald Trump.
Whatever Dick Cheney's flaws and crimes in the past, if he helps to Defeat Donald Trump then, to my mind, he has found some redemption.
There is a binary mortal battle here: Trump wins or Trump loses. And if the Cheneys help Defeat Trump, then thank you to the Cheneys.
The Democratic coalition is a big tent and the Cheneys can endorse whoever they want. I just don't think it's anywhere near the coup that Rick and The Bulwark think it is. Reminding people who remember those catastrophic wars carries a downside as well, and Dick Cheney is the poster boy for a unilateral invasion based on egregious lies.
Without the Iraq and Afghanistan wars -- and again, Cheney was their principal mastermind -- do you really think Republicans would be giving support for Ukraine such a hard time? Of course not. Dick Cheney is directly responsible for that.
I tend to think that the Republicans who are working against Ukraine are Russian assets, and late breaking news tells us that many people are being paid by the Russian government to foment this division in our country. Josh Hawley, JD Vance, and others like them are not, in my opinion, a product of something Dick Cheney did. They are bought and paid for by Russia, or they have been seriously brainwashed, or they have been compromised in some way by the Russian government. Trump, as far as I can tell, is being blackmailed by the Russian government and probably has been for years.
That's a little too conspiracist for my blood, Janet. In order for propaganda to work, the ground has to be seeded for it. It's like in StoogeGate, their handlers wanted to run Tucker's obsequious tour through a Russian grocery store and one of them said waitaminute, that looks like grotesquely transparent shilling ;). I mean, Tara Reade can't write gushing blog posts about Putin's shirtless sex appeal and have it be taken seriously as propaganda ;)
Being against "forever wars" is a talking point on the left and the right. I was adamantly against the Iraq and Afghanistan wars and just as adamantly support Ukraine and it takes no mental gymnastics for me to hold those positions together. But many people don't think about it that deeply and just see the vast amount of blood and treasure wasted on Iraq and Afghanistan and wonder why we have to give aid to Ukraine. You can sincerely hold that position without being influenced by Russian propaganda. And what gives that position credence is precisely the tragically wasted effort that Dick Cheney led us into.
So yeah, with bone crushing irony, Dick Cheney has unwittingly become an instrument of Russian propaganda.
With our democracy teetering on a knife edge, we should take a moment to appreciate the brave, self-sacrificing, utterly patriotic Americans who are stepping up in this moment of peril: President Joe Biden, Adam Kinzinger, Geoff Duncan, Liz and Dick Cheney. And hopefully more to come. When so many are too worried about their political futures to poke their heads up, these people are standing proud in the cause of protecting our democracy despite the personal cost. I'm grateful to all of them.
As far as Vlad's bagmen go, they didn't know where the money came from just like Carmela Soprano didn't know what Tony did for a living. Totally believable.
So well said, Jane. I’m hearing a lot of criticism about the Cheney family, but I think it’s misplaced. At a time like this, complaining about how people voted or what positions they held in the past fades in importance when we are facing a fascist threat. If Liz Cheney and her father want to lock arms with the Democrats to defeat this monster, I welcome her into the fold.
It's not "how Dick Cheney voted," Janet. He was the mastermind behind the biggest foreign policy catastrophe in American history.
Agreed….but this is now, and if the Cheneys help flip some votes in swing districts, I say let them. Encourage them. Doesn’t mean absolving Dick of his role in the Iraq war.
I was referring to Liz Cheney being a very conservative voter and once parroting Trump’s idiotic bullshit about post-birth abortion. She’s guilty of several stupidities, but she has changed her stance on some issues over the years, including the right to marry who you love.
Her sister Mary is famously a lesbian, so I'm sure that was helpful to her change of mind on same sex marriage. But it's not her positions that concern me; Adam Kinzinger is just about as staunchly conservative and yet he's completely sound and would be a fine Republican pick for Kamala's cabinet.
Liz Cheney, as recently as her primary debate with Harriet Hageman, called covid a Chinese bioweapon. That's not a staunchly conservative position, that's an _insane_ position and it disqualifies her from a cabinet post.
I also agree that among all the Republicans who have risked their careers by defying Trump, Kinzinger would be the best for a cabinet position, or some other position in Harris’s administration.
Adam is way way _way_ conservative but he's also a perfectly reasonable guy and I haven't heard him utter an opinion that I'd consider beyond the pale of normal political discourse.
I knew her sister was a lesbian, and I watched an interview with Cheney on PBS concerning how she came around to accepting that. I also know that she has spouted some really insane shit, like the post-birth abortion nonsense, so it does not surprise me that she has bought into the China bioweapon story. There are a number of otherwise intelligent people who have been swayed by that conspiracy theory as well.
It's not about intelligence; a lot of conspiracy theorists have high IQs. It's judgment. You can suspend the rules of evidence for a thought experiment but conflating it with reality is another ball o' whacks.
There are some ideas that should be beyond the pale in politics. Kamala wouldn't appoint a Republican election denier to her cabinet for obvious reasons. She wouldn't appoint a climate denialist to head the EPA or a Flat Earther to run NASA. Also bear in mind that the lab leak theory, which I think is still an open question, is not the same thing as concluding that covid was being developed as a bioweapon.
In perfect fairness to Liz, she said this in her primary debate with Harriet Hageman, so the pressure was on to out-wingnut her opponent.
Think of it as atonement then, Bob.
Atonement and redemption. At the crucial hour he stepped up and did the right thing. Whatever he did in the past, I am grateful for his actions now. Because there is one and only one issue on the table now: defeating Donald Trump. And the Cheneys are stepping up and doing the right thing. Thank you Dick and Liz Cheney.
100%, Abraham. If they're going to get in the boat and row with us, they can sit right next to me.
If Trump is elected, he will replace all top government officials with those who will swear allegiance to Trump.
Then, instead of facing an unpredictable electorate again, he will suspend elections until the fraud and abuse is fixed.
Red state legislators will go along.
Blue will not.
Trump A G will declare any Blue state elections fraudulent.
And so our democracy ends.
No God or George Washington will save it.
I'm going to think about it as a math thing - Dick Cheney, because of the Shock and Awe War - was at a minus 10 with me. His daughter's announcement that he's voting for Harris gets him plus 5. So that leaves me at minus 5 for the Dick. Destabilizing, useless, lie-based wars (thousands upon thousands of human casualties, untold suffering), outweigh 1 vote, but bring him closer to even. In my book.
You and I aren't the people who will be persuaded or swayed by an endorsement from Dick Cheney. We're not the target audience. As far as the Iraq war goes, you and I - and my conservative republican late dad - are on the same page. But this isn't about that or then. It's about the future of our country and preventing an authoritarian take over of our government.
You’re right, we’re not the target audience. I hope, but doubt, it will sway other voters.
This is not about the moral story arc of Dick Cheney.
It's about the fact that _nobody_ in America has positive feelings about the Iraq and Afghanistan wars.
George W is just as much to blame for those wars. He made a pact with the devil when he selected Dick Cheney as his vice president. I do think that Dick Cheney is a monster in his own right for his past actions, but he is not totally to blame for that decades long debacle. There were other actors, and let’s remember that Hillary Clinton’s vote was to invade Iraq. I’d like to give the American people enough credit to be able to distinguish between a positive act on the part of Dick Cheney and his daughter, and Dick’s past history and the policies his daughter stands for. I’m not sure how you jump to the conclusion that somehow Liz Cheney is going to have a cabinet position. (Did you mention that in another post or am I imagining that?) If Liz somehow becomes the person who initiates the rebuilding of a normal and sane Republican Party, then that can only be a good thing.
This is our first deep dish disagreement, Janet, and I thank you for your civility and respect, although I'd expect nothing less from you ;)
Neither Hillary Clinton nor Joe Biden nor John Kerry voted to invade Iraq. They voted for the AUMF as a leveraging tool, predicated on Hans Blix finishing the weapons inspections which Dubya prevented him from doing. They were all betrayed by the president's lie.
Dick Cheney is the intellectual architect of the Iraq invasion and the justification for it. Before the Office of Special Plans in the VP's office, he was part of the Program For a New American Century, which laid out the case for an Iraq invasion in the late 90s as "a new Pearl Harbor to awaken America's moral purpose." George W. Bush was never as dumb as his public caricature, but he was no intellectual, either. He was an easily led gaga enthusiast. And this led to the collapse of the GOP foreign policy consensus and ultimately Trump's isolationism. The person who did the most to enable Trump's rise is Dick Cheney.
Kamala Harris wants to appoint a Republican to her cabinet, which I'm absolutely fine with. I'm just saying that Liz's belief that covid is a Chinese bioweapon is a conspiracy theory that disqualifies her.
The GOP is not going to be rebuilt by marquee ultraconservatives like the Cheneys. If it's going to be rebuilt, it will be rebuilt by moderates.
None of that is news, Bob. But his endorsement isn't about the past, it's about preserving the future of our democratic republic. History will judge him and George W over their conduct of the Afghan and Iraq wars, and rightfully so. That's not the moment we're in now. Right now, we're facing the rise of a fascist authoritarian movement led by Donald Trump that will destroy our country as we know it. If Dick Cheney and his daughter are brave enough to face down the wrath of MAGA and stand with us in preventing that, I'm willing to lock arms with them and thank them for their help.
Our house is on fire. Until that fire is out, I’m not going to reject anybody who comes running with a bucket of water, a hose or a fire axe.
exactly. This is a life and death moment for American democracy, and the Cheneys (whatever their past deeds) are stepping up and doing the right thing. Helping to defeat Donald Trump.
My thanks to the Cheneys.
This!! 👆🏻
I'm concerned about the political consequences. I don't think this is nearly the coup that the Beltway insiders think it is. Liz Cheney is a hero but I think her father remains toxic. Dick Cheney is in large part responsible for Donald Trump by wrecking the GOP foreign policy consensus and saddling us with two catastrophic wars that not a single soul can argue did any good for America or the world.
You wanna know why vast chunks of the GOP can't support Ukraine?
Blame Dick Cheney.
Dick Cheney did many bad things; Trump, however, is far worse than Dick Cheney. Any actions that swing voters toward dumping Trump can only help us.
Take their votes but no Cabinet positions
Absolutely none! Adam Kinzinger might be an exception, but even he is too conservative for me and most Democrats. I’m not sure that these Republicans who are endorsing Kamala Harris are looking for cabinet positions in a Democratic administration. I think they are trying to be leaders in the establishment of a new and better Republican Party.
Amen, Dorothy.
History is not going to remember it that way. The Iraq and Afghanistan wars were worse than anything that happened in Trump's administration, including his botched covid response. Their catastrophic failures are directly responsible for the GOP becoming isolationist. In fact, no single person did more to create the conditions for the rise of Donald Trump than Dick Cheney, who essentially radio controlled Dubya on the wars, who was well out of his depth.
I understand and agree with that, but I do not think that it is going to dissuade people from voting for Kamala Harris because they’re disgusted by Dick Cheney‘s past actions and decisions. All I care about right now is getting past this election with the country intact.
We all hope it wouldn't, Janet, but I'm concerned about voters on the bubble. Like lefties who are already browned off at Biden/Harris over Gaza and they see that Kamala was just endorsed by the arch-warmonger himself. I worry that there are actually more of them than there are of suburban Republicans who'd be impressed by a Cheney endorsement enough to vote for Harris.
Of course this is just my speculation and I very much hope I'm wrong.
The point of this election is not simply to move the left to vote Democratic, it is to create a permission structure for life-long Republicans to vote for Democrats. I understand some purist Democrats might stay home, but if they can't see the bigger picture they may already stay home because Kamala is too centrist Democrat for them. Lifelong Democrat voters can't stop Republican endorsements, even if they wanted to do so-----but even more importantly centrist Republicans are reliable voters we now want to vote for Kamala. I fervently hope that liberal Democrats will encourage voters to vote for Kamala, but that might not happen independent of the Cheneys's endorsement. I think these Republican endorsements can increase votes for Kamala from the center right, and any leftist Democrat who can't see that not voting f9r Harris is actually electing Trump, probably aren't planning to vote for her anyway.
agreed; the one and only critical factor at this moment in American history is to Defeat Trump, and if all the evil Cheneys and Bad Guys from the past step up TODAY and do the right thing, then I'll take it. I wouldn't decline life-saving surgery because the Doctor is a MAGA Republican. If Cheney can help to save America from Trump, then thank you Dick Cheney.
This is an excellent assessment of the situation, in my humble opinion.
Liz Cheney has a special, honored place for sitting on the J6 Committee and torching her political career in order to defend democracy. Her father, not so much; he's indelibly associated with the two biggest foreign policy catastrophes in American history. I think in general, the Cheney stock is overpriced for the sort of voters you're talking about, center-right suburban Republicans. The Cheney name has real cache for deep dish conservatives like Rick and The Bulwark.
I don't think Liz's endorsement would have a negative effect on Democratic turnout at all. I think Dick's endorsement has the potential to be a net negative even for Republicans, because there isn't a soul in America who looks back fondly on those two wars.
Those two wars demolished the postwar GOP foreign policy consensus and allowed Trump's strain of isolationism to take hold.
Great post!! Agree with paragraph 1 and paragraph 2 is perfect!!
Thanks, Duhrew.
Tucker certainly reads as a whore of Putin, as does MTG who’s been awfully quiet lately. Great video, Rick. Peace buddy 👍👍✌️
Actual facts:
Dick Cheney endorsing Harris tells you everything you need to know.
This is NOT a normal election.
It's America vs Trump.
Let's band together and defeat him once for all.
Both Liz and Dick Cheney understand that this election is for the future of our country.
Let’s save revival of our criticism of Dick’s past until after the election. We can debate policy later.
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We're not going back.
I wish you would stop using writer’s Substack newsletters as a way to promote your merchandise. It is truly sleazy.
The twin catastrophes of the Iraq and Afghanistan wars are not "policies" that can be disagreed with in a debate.
Look, the Cheneys are wrong about plenty of things. But right now, the Trump stain on the GOP is so thorough, everyone will have to think about the giant yawning vacuum that opens up after Trump. No one is going to make Liz Cheney president, and Dick is obviously politically done. Someone is going to have to at least start a process to reform the GOP, or make another party, or whatever. Right now, history is history and let's not look at gift horse in the mouth. The Cheneys might not bring many votes to our side, but even a small number might be decisive.
"Wrong" is gilding the lily here. From a purely political perspective, I worry that plenty of people across the ideological spectrum remain thoroughly disgusted by those wars and just reminding them of Dick Cheney might suppress turnout.
I mean, Dick Cheney is not anybody's idea of a poster boy for rebuilding our alliances.
It's pretty clear he's supporting Harris because Trump is dangerous, not because he thinks Harris will be a military adventurist. I can't believe anybody would be confused about that at all. I don't think a single Democrat will be put off by this, and it may attract some GOP voters/leaners. My hope is this is the beginning of other big names.
Your hope is my hope; this may nudge some well-known Republicans who have been biting their nails about this off the fence. If other important non-MAGA conservatives do the same thing, it could move a lot of undecided and independent voters. I also don’t think this is going to keep young people from voting for Kamala Harris. I think younger Americans are smart enough to understand that this is about saving America from fascism. It’s not about the Cheney’s thinking that they can influence Kamala’s policies.
It shouldn't be about that, Janet, but war produces psychic trauma and long lasting bad feelings. Dick Cheney can endorse who he wants for whatever reason he chooses, but I don't think Kamala ought to be putting that endorsement in any campaign ads.
Other Republicans would be good. Liz Cheney is fine.
Dick Cheney is his own category.
There isn't a single Democrat leaning person who'd stay home because Dick Cheney said, "Trump is too evil even for me."
Low-information voters are very fickle and that's not the way the thought process would go. It would be more like "maybe Kamala's a neocon."
And that would cut across ideology. Nobody looks fondly on either of those wars, which accomplished nothing good for America or the world.
Low information voters don't know what a neocon is. We can't have him un-endorse. This is done, time to move on.
Thank you for posting Liz Cheney’s second statement affirming her support for Kamala Harris and indicating that her father, Dick Cheney would vote for Kamala Harris also. Liz Cheney made the same point some people around me are making. No one who talks about women the way these men do should hold office. The other point the men around here make is that supporting MAGA Republicans make men unpopular with women. I hadn’t thought of that until a guy pointed it out.
SC, that's a well-thought historical analysis and perspective.
But I think this election is about NOW; and right now the majority of Americans want to see the end of the malignant Trump era. That's the ballot question of this election: more Trumpism? Or goodbye Trumpism. Period. Nothing else matters.